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Mon, Nov. 22nd, 2010, 08:43 pm
Another Path?

This is a call-out to kindred spirits... because my vision requires other people... and for us to be working in preparation to that end.

my vision is...
I and band of other Christians would be moving around world: entering towns and specifically engaging the saved (exhortation) and the unsaved (evangelism); as well as just interacting with the people that crossed our path/s.

We would be living with purpose... preaching, admonishing, exhorting... relating, ministering.. from the hip, as Christ did.

Such at this time would seem to require some spiritual disciplines...
(This is something we would need to be working toward.)
But what exactly would be a personal thing.
Because all members of this group would be making this happen financially in their own way.
Me personally?
I'm very, very, very much against this "hi I have zero experience being a missionary or evangelist... but I feel called by God to do this... so even though the greatest missionary evanglist of all time (Paul) was a craftsman that took care of his own finances... I think you should pay me a salary so I can be a 'full-time missionary'... even though I'd have much more credibility with the people if I actually worked for my living and ministered in my free time for the sheer joy and recreation of it all." (your job is also a missions field)
So it's likely that I really wouldn't be wild about anyone tagging along that wasn't taking care of the expenses out of their own pocket; at least initially.
GET A JOB. It was good enough for Paul. It's good enough for you.
And if ministering is work to you... then you're doing it wrong; or you don't have the heart for it.

Anyways... we'd be something of a guild... we'd discuss what we must become to personify this vision... and we'd hold each other accountable...
Eventually we'd be a world-wide network of ministers... with various home/hubs throughout the globe... which would be shared in a communal living sort of thing
Sometimes we'd all be together; sometimes their would just be a few of us at any one place: it would all be as we personally felt led.
The main thing is we wouldn't be doing any of this "I've been called to this one place... and I'm just going to stay here for years, and years, and years... even though there's absolutely zero precedent for that kind of missions in scripture (NT or OT)... which is kind of ironic seeing as travel is much, much easier now... so if anything we should be moving around MORE frequently than Paul did, not less so.*

Two things are possible: I'll either find like kindred spirits and we'll work toward this together; or I'll personify it to some extent first... and sort of start making disciples at some point down the road: coaching them in how to be what I see.

*So why more frequent moving around? It's simple:
Start running with some people... Ok... so you're running right? some aren't running so fast... so let's say you slow down so those slower ones can keep up (or not get offended) they'll eventually start running even slower.. then you slow... then they start walking... then you start walking... cuz you don't want to leave them behind... blah blah. NO. That's not in Scripture: you run the race. Some of the seed just falls in the gravel or etc. Get over it. It's not your responsibility. Run the race.
Minister as the forefathers did it... and surprise: we'll get similar results.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:18 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): response reposted here

Slow down your talking and increase your living according to Truth. Stop criticizing the church and join it. As there is wrong with the church, there is good, but you are developing these eloquent arguments to build a kingdom of your own pride and glory, not God's. Quit discussing how we can do differently than the church and find where the church IS doing right, and join in.

Many Americans are far, far too obsessed with individuality and having tailored churches for there own desires (not needs), and you are doing what every other denominational church strives for. There is no such thing as "grocery aisle Churches" in other countries, and there is no need. What there is need for is obeying His commands and serving others, and spreading the gospel. There is an ABUNDANCE of ministries and organizations IN PLACE in this ridiculously church-wealthy country, in this very city, compared to other countries, and if you have time and means, you have absolutely no excuse for not joining the ministries already available to you, by God's grace, except that I fear you are too proud to humble yourself and work alongside others under Christ. You want to be an elite Christian, better than others. This is a lie, not Truth, and you are wasting time in this pursuit.

We are called to be servants and consider others better than ourselves. Follow His commands, don't criticize how others choose to follow them.

As you asked for honesty and openness, I'm offering it for your benefit Robert. If you spent as many hours serving others as you spent criticizing others who actually give theirs lives serving the gospel, you would be wealthy in God's kingdom. Strive for this! Living the Truth, having grace, accepting grace, and realizing you are called to be a SERVANT to others.

Volunteer to help those in need, help the poor and orphaned, minister to the lost, be bold in sharing the gospel by God's grace and for HIS pride, not yours, so that His name will be praised, not yours. I believe you seek to live for God Robert, so I write this to encourage you to do that. You nor I are in this world to look smarter than others. We are here to be lower than others, to work alongside others, to serve them. Quiet your soul and surrender your will to God to serve Him. In serving Him, you will find peace and understanding, and true joy and fulfillment. But never in creating discord amongst Christians by creating sects of "elites" will you please God.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:19 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

Matt, there's some validity to your points; but the root of my anger is frustration with there not being an alternative to the alleged tripe. I'm not the only one that sees this stuff... but I'm frustrated that we're all just scattered like the wind: we're either not in church at all and just burned-out... or we're in some church "making the best of it" when deep down we don't agree at all about what's being done; or how it's done. So I'm standing-up as imperfect as I am and saying: this is where I'm wanting to go>do; and this is why. There's going to be hate in there: it's the flipside of passion. With all due-respect: criticism about my heart in this isn't going to be helpful for me: I've been haunted by this vision for years, and years, and years; and neglected to embrace it due to the alleged implications of arrogance and audacity that it might seem to imply; but I'm done with that now: I have no thing to hide: I accept I'm just a wretched creature saved by Grace; and that's not going to change. What I want are concerns about the idea it self: some have talked about the implication of me starting a cult... others have spoken-up about a lack of stability... etc. These things are valid concerns... and people bringing them-up will help this wretched creature iron-out this vision He believes is from God.
If you feel God isn't in it... then feel free to pray it fails; or my heart changes; but I'm moving forward in it. I have to at least try or I'll never be at peace until I ignore the doubt.

I don't want my name praised!
That's one of the biggest reasons why I've not moved forward with this; and that I have so much anger that something like this isn't already being done... so I could just quietly be a part of it.
I'm pissed-off because I don't want to have to lead this... but every single time I try to assimilate with a church or ministry... my bullshit alarm goes off and it's just like NO. So I either have to try to fulfill my vision I'll either succeed; or I'll fail and then be free to just try and "make the best of the status quo.

Thank you for bringing up these issues.
You're likely not the only one that had that perception of me; and I'm glad to address it.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 02:50 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

Matt B

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:20 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): response reposted here

I agree with your principles, and I am trying to live them out. But I am dead set against joining boards, committees, accountability groups, focus groups, dream teams, movements, or anything that sounds like these things.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:21 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

I'm not talking about accoutability: I'm talking about a group of people that are dissatisfied with the status quo; and have a passion to offer an alternative... feeding off each other... moving toward a specific pragmatic end: personhood ministry. I don't want any board, other than a discussion forum... I don't even think in the terms you listed.
That's exo-skeletal spirituality: the antitheis of what I'm talking about; and frankly - I allege - the reason for the relative impotence of the church in the world today. Personhood is infinitely flexible. And - I allege - is truly the only model demonstrated in the NT


I did use the word accountability though; but I mean it in an informal way; as I believe the Scriptures imply: admonish one another... as iron sharpens iron... etc.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 02:50 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

Shawn M

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:23 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): response reposted here

i think its bad ass!! for reals :)

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:24 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

Sweet... so are you meaning to imply that you've tentative interest in personally being a part of something like this... or merely desiring to encourage me in pursuit of my vision?

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:54 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): Re: response reposted here

ive already started this somewhat .... its not exactly world wide yet .. and my intention isnt quite fueled toward reaching others as much as letting the experiences im having in the lord conform me more into his image ... and those are far and few in between... As for now ... it seems i am already apart of something like this ... maybe not in the way you are implying but more along the fact that it happens without organization ... its just how the spirit moves .. it moves all those in him towards something similar to this ... so yes i would be interested for sure. as it appears this is already something im ever so slightly striving for in my own life. Mostly seems to be embracing the random so to speak and staying open to him, doing whatever the heck he wants with me .. its encouragement for me to read something like this . Nice to know others are seeing this thing .. that seems so misconstrued these days .

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:54 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

Well... It's more geared toward an end: I want to rock the world for Christ the way Paul did... or closer to it than modern Christianity is doing. To do that... I'm talking about personal change; and so this group would be geared toward those in it personally moving to that end... instead of just sort of going about their lives with little more than a "no bullshit" policy. I don't believe in the ham-fisted sermon; but I DO believe in the believer knowing God's Word... inside and out (like a musician knows scales) and then jamming as it were with off the cuff lessons as Christ did. The latter is something I naturally do already: interjecting scripture in conversation; but I want to be much, much, much better at that; and I want to hit entire cities with other with other spiritual gifts and just rock them for Christ.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:56 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): Re: response reposted here

well paul really didnt rock it like we all think he did..... its was a slow burn for him ... and shit tons of suffering along the way. It was guided and lead completely by the spirit as well. I think the idea of modern evangelism and missionary work is a bull shit cover up for me getting a vacation and shooting some biblical shit at some people. worrying about the harvest was never what christ intended for his church instead he wanted them to just be happy they are in him. thats why i like what you wanna do man. Doesn't have a bullshit cover up . it is what it is. I have had both dreams and visions from the lord that i would one day be apart of some group similar to what your talking about. So yes im interested in doing this but only if i know the spirit is willing me to be apart of something like this. he's the commander so to speak and even tho i may be qualified to partake in the "black ops" doesn't mean i have the authority to just yet.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 02:10 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

Commitment to this - and to what extent - would be on the fly.
For me this will be my life God-willing;
but who joins me... to what degree they join me... how long they run with me in this... that's all "as you feel led" in my opinion.

I relish the idea of me and some of us being on a mission... and then we just inadvertently cross paths with each other for some reason... and etc.

The root of my vision is kindred spirits exhorting each other to a productive alternative to the status quo we all dislike to one degree or another.

I believe that the more detailed one gets... the more individual our paths will be; but we'll be a group in purpose and intent.
We'd be a 100% voluntary guild.
Some of us may not even leave NWA

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 03:41 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

"with other people, with other spiritual gifts"

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 02:51 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here

Brian K

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 01:58 am (UTC)
(Anonymous): response reposted here (Crosby)

"and sort of start making disciples at some point down the road: coaching them in how to be what I see."
...so I think a great deal of what you wrote is very good and on point. It's an ideal picture of what the Sermon on the Mount and the Great Commission all wrapped together could be if Christians were more fluid in their faith.
I don't know you at all so I say this in great kindness (promise). Be careful and guard off any creeping in of "self-importance". I copied the statement above from what you wrote. Don't know if you need to coach and create disciples to be what you see. I know that one would most likely say, "of course, I meant to coach people to be like Christ and of course I meant I was creating disciples of Christ"....but that's not what you said and you seem like someone who words probably hold a place of priority.
I don't want to follow someone who is getting people to think like him/her/the group...that will fail me every time (and has). I don't want to follow anything or anyone but Christ. I think in the most simple of terms, my ultimate hope is to tell someone, "hey here's this guy named Jesus. let's see what he's got to say to you" .....and then I move the hell out of the way. The more I learn about Him the more I know that I know nothing...thank God He didn't set me loose to do His work but instead promised to do His work through me.

Just a couple of thoughts...

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 02:26 am (UTC)
whune: Re: response reposted here (Crosby)

The statement that this might start-out or continue as me making disciples...
is in regard to vision.

Remember what Andrea said at lunch... about how groups like this tend to just sort of be unstable and not really productive..?
That's for a lack of vision.
I have a very, very clear idea of what this looks like; I'm just struggling to convey it in words; most others just know they hate the status quo; but they hate it mostly because of how it feels; not because they see an alternative.
People have trouble doing something they don't see demonstrated... and at this point I think many that would be ideal for this... are just tired of all that (again as Andrea said). Such people need someone to go ahead... and blaze some of the trail: demonstrate how to walk in that way; rather than just talk about it.
This is not about doing... this is about being.
It's right to the core of what a person is: how one engages people in the moments-by-moments.
I see this.
I don't know how much of it I can explain and have people march along side me with... until I show them by being;
and that by definition is true discipleship.

Whether I'm to disciple people or not has absolutely nothing to do with me.
The vision has nothing to do with me.
If my vision is from God...
Then He chose to give it to me: it's a gift; as well as the personality and gifts to fulfill said vision.
Leadership is a gift; and it starts with vision.
A lion is a lion and rabbit is a rabbit to know curse or glory of their own.
Or put another way:
I see to the degree that I understand it's not me.

I don't want people that think like me
That would be redundant
I want people that think differently from me; but feel called to the seem purpose;
and then we together in our blindness (for now we see through a glass darkly I Cor 13) can sort of stumble around and figure it out together
(admonishing one another) and "as iron sharpens iron.." etc.

Also:
"Leadership" is a pragmatic matter:
The only reason I'm making this call out is because I don't see anyone doing what I feel called to; and I see a lot of people that I think feel the same way...

If someone else was rallying people together like this, for soemthing like this... then I'd get right behind him; and for as long as I felt he was in step with scripture (which is what I want for this "group"
I don't want mindless followers. If I get off track (and that is quite possible... because alleged vision and gifts don't negate my innate wretchedness as a human being) I want people to call me on it; and if I don't keep my eyes on God... and people feel called away from me... then I want them to take a different path from me.

Does this make sense?

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 02:57 am (UTC)
whune

Edit:
I've removed the "special forces unit" analogy
Aside from the elite level of personal discipline ergo effectiveness... the analogy has no real grounds at all.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 03:15 am (UTC)
pastorlenny

What is the gospel?

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 03:21 am (UTC)
whune

John 3:16

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 03:28 am (UTC)
whune

or were you testing to see how readily and fluidly I explained it off the cuff?

I tailor my message to whom I'm engaging.
You're already saved.

This isn't about my proving my self.
It's about rallying kindred spirits together.
That doesn't mean I'm rallying them to follow me.
I'm rallying them to get us together and rolling in a direction we all seem to feel on some same level.

by definition I'm leading this by set the initiative;
but that's not my goal
This isn't about me.
My goal is to see the world ministered to in a way that I see in Christ and don't see in the world today.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 03:59 am (UTC)
pastorlenny

Actually, i was simply attempting to ascertain your understanding of the gospel that you claim to want to preach. According to your OP, your mission would be to the "saved" as well as the "unsaved." Or are you saying that the "saved" don't need to hear the gospel?

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 04:06 am (UTC)
whune

I'm saying the saved need to act on the Gospel;
and that's what I mean by "exhort the saved."
(Do you disagree?)

My vision is primarily to exhort the saved; because 2 are potentially better than one.

However: primary doesn't negate the secondary push of evangelism.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 04:18 am (UTC)
pastorlenny

I think this position reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the gospel. It is, in fact, a denial of Christ's ongoing redemptive activity in the Church.

This is why we don't reduce the gospel to John 3:16 or Romans 10:9. The gospel is about much more than the conversion of the unbeliever.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 04:23 am (UTC)
whune

ok... part of this post is about doing what I can do now to move toward what I feel called to do.
That implies that I must personally change.

That said:
Please feel free to expound on your point of my alleged misconception of the Gospel;
because I'm not really getting what you are saying from such a succinct statement.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 04:31 am (UTC)
pastorlenny

Yes, your implication does seem to be that you must personally change you. It seems as if the gospel you propose is something like: "Believe in Jesus so you can be turned into a 'saved person' -- and then start telling other people to do the same thing."

I would certainly think that the gospel of Christ entails His continued action upon us after we are "saved" as well. Or is it your position that He simply forgives our sins and then has us go preach?

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 06:29 pm (UTC)
torbenite

I wouldnt lose too much sleep about it. Lenny has a crusade against people like you, because he is orthodox.

Different viewpoint, and anyone who does not conform to his world is a heretic.

I say go for it, but before you make sure this is really what God wants you to do. If you can't stop thinking about it, if it burdens you, then perhaps it is Gods vision in your life.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 06:56 pm (UTC)
whune

Thanks for that feedback; but I do plan to discuss this with him; as I might be in error.

Thanks also for the encouragement about this.

Yes: it's haunted me for literally years (16+)
I've neglected to decisively act on it... mostly out of shame in regard to the implications of arrogance on my part.
I really don't want to start something... and that's where all my anger about this comes from: I just want to be part of a ministry that doesn't set my bs alarms off on.
Thus far I've not found anything even remotely like what I'm talking about... only individuals that feel what I'm feeling... but aren't really acting on it in anyway.
Most of them are self-described as "jaded" many aren't in any kind of a church... thus they aren't growing... it's a vicious cycle: their aversion for bs keeps them far from their potential.
So I'm just wanting to rally us together... to unite us sans bs ... so we can move forward;
but to do that... it can't be any kind of external organization; or we'll just be another flavor of the problem.
The only way this will work is kindred spirits with congruent objectives feeding off each others energy and different gifts.
Someone has to set the initiative though;
someone has to see the how it would all work; and then call people to join him in it;
and it looks like that someone is me;
so I'm finally just saying:
"Maybe I am arrogant; but this burns in my soul; and I'm not going to be at peace until I totally spend everything I've got to fulfill this vision."

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 06:59 pm (UTC)
whune

It would help me if you clarified this statement:

"Lenny has a crusade against people like you, because he is orthodox."

People like me?
What is your perception of me?
Then I can ask pastorlenny if that is his perception of me as well
Etc.

Wed, Nov. 24th, 2010 04:24 pm (UTC)
chordoflife

I think he's saying that the Gospel cannot be reduced to shear conversion, but rather is a whole set of life principles that are vast and encompass many aspects outside of these verses.

Thu, Nov. 25th, 2010 01:03 pm (UTC)
whune

You seem to be talking about "sanctification."

This is how I presently see it:

"Gospel" merely means: "good news:"
"While we were yet sinners... Christ died for us."

Whereas...
Sanctification - after submitting to and embracing said news: ergo accepting Christ as Savior>Lord - is on-going; but not actually part of the Good news it self:
Sanctification is a process that occurs after we've accepted the Gospel/"Good News."



Sat, Jan. 29th, 2011 10:01 pm (UTC)
limegreenl1ght

question: do you not see this going on now?

I think it is a good vision, but I think it is already happening.

(I know it's an old post, but maybe you're still interested in discussing it)

Sun, Jan. 30th, 2011 04:54 am (UTC)
whune

I'm definitely still interested in discussing it.

No: As far as I'm aware it's not.
The key thing I don't think I highlighted was the personhood foundation.

There will be no "boards" committees... people sitting around getting paid to manage and coordinate...
None of the human reasoning type stuff.
There would be no group per se other than acknowledgment in participants minds of kindred spirit ministers>ministry.
Its make-up and expression will be extremely organic; and ever in a state of flux.

Please feel free to elaborate on where you see this "already happening"